Aquatic Facility Work Session
Present: Mayor Ernie McAlister,
Mayor Pro Tem Jack Smith, Council Members Marla Dorrel, Jennifer Robinson, Julie
Robison and Nels Roseland
Michael Joyce had resigned and
the Town is operating with a 6 person council.
Mayor McAlister called the
meeting to order at
Consultant Scott Hunsaker of
Councilman Hunsaker & Associates in
Mr. Hunsaker stated that some
of the analyses are based on assumptions, the market analysis needs to be
updated, and that the models presented in 2000 and 2004 were updated with
current market data. They looked at the market area within 25 miles of Town
Hall.
Mayor McAlister stated that the
$10 million from the county is not included in project of $47,360,000. Mr.
Hunsaker concurred.
Mrs. Robison asked about the
length of the financial scenarios. Mr. Hunsaker responded that they only
estimated for five years. He said that the assumption was an increase of
expenses at two-and-a-half percent. An assumption of increased fees was not made
on the revenue side. He recommended that the fees be adjusted on a regular basis
to keep up with the costs of operation.
Mary Henderson of the Parks,
Recreation and Cultural Resources Department stated that it is important that
everyone understands the options and that they are opinions on what would meet
the regional requirements.
Mrs. Robison asked if all of
the recommended options have leisure indicated. Mr. Hunsaker replied yes.
Ms. Dorrel asked if the
baseline is the opinion as to the minimum for county money. Mr. Hunsaker
responded yes.
Mayor McAlister asked what is
needed for the regional venue. Mr. Hunsaker said that the recommendation is for
the minimum required to qualify as a regional venue destination. He said that
3000 was for an international organization and that 4000 is for the national
venue concept.
Mrs. Robison asked what drives
the assumption that the baseline concept qualifies for the regional venue for
the county funds. Mr. Hunsaker
replied that they looked at places which have been successful in the past in
hosting those elements. They believe that 1000 is the bare bones, but it would
need to be quantified by the county. He said they were trying to minimize the
capital investment while still meeting the requirement.
Mr. Roseland asked if there is
an indoor and an outdoor recommended component. Mr. Hunsaker stated that the
model includes both due to capacity. He said that the outdoor facility is larger
in order to handle the summer demand; the indoor pool is smaller because there
is less demand.
Mrs. Robison asked if the model
accounts for the amount of recommended land. Mr. Hunsaker said that land
acquisition is not included in their costs.
Mr. Hunsaker said that they did
not have access to detailed costs for the Triangle Aquatic Center (TAC) concept,
but provided estimates for programming spaces.
Mr. Roseland asked if the
biggest difference between the TAC facility and the baseline is 3300 square feet
in the indoor and outdoor leisure component. Mr. Hunsaker said that those
categories are the biggest between the two.
Mrs. Robison asked about the
cost of the additional components based on recreation and land. Mr. Hunsaker
responded that the raw costs for the outdoor and indoor pools is about $6.8
million with the full cost being $8.2 million with no land included the cost.
Mrs. Robinson asked the about
the short course season swim meets. Mr. Hunsaker said that short course meets
can occur because there are two bulkheads. With two bulkheads there can be two
fields of play assuming the length of the pool with venue spectators on the
side. That is why they recommend against removing one of the bulkheads.
Mrs. Robison asked if the pool
would ever be used for anything other than competitive. Mr. Hunsaker said that
it is a management decision which has yet to be determined. However his
experience has been that it would be used for recreational lap swimming and
could possibly be used for some other activities. He said that it would be less
in programming for the younger age groups because of the depth of the pool, but
that a removable floor provides for program flexibility to allow for the younger
groups.
Ms. Dorrel asked how diving is
accommodated. Mr. Hunsaker responded that in the baseline concept, phase concept
and the TAC concept springboard diving is provided which meets the needs of high
school swimming only.
Mr. Hunsaker said that he
understands that TAC is already building an indoor 50 meter pool with two
moveable bulkheads 25 yards wide and approximately 1000 spectator seats which is
identical to the requirement of the baseline concept. He said that they need to
discuss the opportunity for combining resources if that is the choice council
makes.
Mayor McAlister asked about
regional venue baseline element. Mr. Hunsaker said that it probably will be $27
million and possibly higher depending on site costs and other things. He said he
is not sure of the baseline number.
Mr. Hunsaker said that the
reason they asked for a review of the plans and specifications is that they have
a clear understanding of the life cycle costs, materials and elements for the
national venue concept and the baseline concepts. He said that because they have
not had an opportunity to perform a detailed review of the plans and
specifications for TAC they do not have an understanding of the systems and
infrastructure being planned at the TAC facility. Mrs. Henderson added that
they tried to outline the direction to see about looking into a partnership with
TAC.
Mrs. Robinson asked about the
advantages and disadvantages of partnering with TAC. Mrs. Henderson said
the expectation would be that it would be less additional dollars. The minimum
venue shows $27 million, which has gone up from two years ago. She said if TAC
wanted to partner then the Town would need to provide some of the facilities.
Mrs. Robinson asked about the
advantage of partnering with TAC with regard to the competition for the regional
events. Mr. Hunsaker said that there is enough training need both the long and
short course in the community for the number of lanes that two 50 meter pools
would provide. He said there’s probably some excess of pass through in the
market with two facilities with venue seating and he estimated approximately 125
slow peak days. He said that two 50 meter pools will not meet all of the demands
for practice and lane time in the market.
Mrs. Robison asked if the trade
off with two facilities is the access to the revenue to the bid events to use
the facility. Mr. Hunsaker said there would be a duplicate provider if both
facilities were constructed. The amount budgeted for slow meets is $50,000 net
in direct operating expenses a year. The $50,000 was projected from the
standpoint of leasing the building out to allow the use, not looking at the
entire revenue of the meet—a lot of that will be at the club level and not at
the facility level.
Ms. Dorrel asked if phasing to
the national venue included the outdoor competitive pool. Mr. Hunsaker said
that the baseline facility does not include an outdoor competitive pool. Ms. Dorrel
asked if it can be phased in to go to the national level and if the TAC indoor
competitive pool could serve that need. Mr. Hunsaker replied probably not. He
said the value would be for practice for a large meet but he warm up pool needs
to be adjacent to the competitive pool. He said there could be some joint use
potential.
Mrs. Dorrel asked if the
baseline meets those needs. Mr. Hunsaker replied that depending on the number of
lanes in the leisure pool there could be some warm up space.
Mrs. Robinson requested that
Paul Silver, senior chair for the Board of NC Swimming be allowed to comment on
the facility. She said it is important to hear from someone locally who knows
about the number of meets in this region. Mayor
McAlister asked for council concurrence, which was received, and stated that Mr.
Silver’s comments should be for clarity purposes.
Mr. Silver stated that there
are 36+ competitions a year that could be held and even more with two
facilities. He said that a three lane warm down pool wouldn’t suffice as
regional. He added that is sometimes hard to do the right things in a 50 meter
pool because the water temperature is lower, so a separate therapy pool with
warmer water might be better.
Mayor McAlister said that it
would be beneficial to have full information on all four options to make an
informed decision and the partnership option is the one that they know the least
about. Mr. Hunsaker said that informant was requested about the TAC facility at
the beginning of the process and there was reluctance to make information public
until direction was received from council. Mike Curran, president of TAC stated
that the request came in on Monday and he was not available at that time.
Mayor McAlister said that
council will need information from TAC, along with the other options, in order
to determine which will be the best for the Town.
Ms. Dorrel said that the
information about TAC becomes more pertinent if council wants to find a site
that provides future capacity to grow to the national level.
Mr. Hunsaker stated that if the national venue is the goal then the TAC
project doesn’t fit with the national venue. He said that there may be a
partnership opportunity with TAC with the regional concept; however, that would
require a major redesign of work that’s already been done and a pause in the
momentum for the TAC organization. He
doesn’t think this is at the forefront moving forward.
Ms. Dorrel stated that
receiving information from TAC is necessary if a partnership is to be pursued.
She questioned where there is a partnership model that works for TAC which would
allow the Town the potential for a future national venue.
Mayor McAlister asked about the
available acreage around the TAC site and whether that type of expansion would
be accommodating. Mr. Curran thinks
that it could be quickly and easily done with Parks, Recreation and Cultural
Resources. He said that 7.4 acres of the 21.57 acres are being used for the
current facility. Ms. Henderson added that the Town has an additional 10
acres adjacent to site.
Mr. Hunsaker said that joint
use is very difficult because management models need to be timeless. He said
it’s all about relationships, how to handle finances, and how to make
decisions. A clear management plan, direction, and vision are critical to the
success of the facility.
Mayor McAlister stated that
during the process of seeking interlocal funding much emphasis was placed on
pursing a public/private partnership. He wants more information on a TAC
partnership before making any decisions.
Ms. Dorrel said that a key
questions to ask is what that partnership would mean. Her major concern is that
there is equitable access for
Mayor Pro Tem Smith said that
the idea of a partnership is to share costs. He said if TAC meets the venue
requirement then why not just include the leisure pool and the Town ensure
access to leisure and let special interest groups be driven by TAC.
Mr. Roseland agreed with Mayor
Pro Tem Smith. He said that
Mrs. Robinson stated that she
thought the purpose of the meeting was to discuss the best scope of a facility
and not to make a decision whether TAC was the best option. She thinks council
should focus on the day-to-day and the capacity needed. She said there is enough
daily need to be absorbed by two swimming pools and they shouldn’t make
financial decisions based on swim meets. She doesn’t know if there are
benefits to being a national venue; however, if looking at a national venue then
the university system should contribute money because they are a large user.
Mrs. Robinson said the question is whether there is a need for one or two indoor
50 meter pools. She said if the answer is one then they should look at a
partnership; if it’s two they should build their own facility and attach
leisure.
Mayor McAlister asked which
option Mrs. Robinson prefers. Mrs. Robinson said that she would pick the
regional baseline separate from TAC with more than 1000 seating.
Mayor McAlister stated that the
interlocal funds awarded were based on a regional venue facility and did not
require that the Town build a national facility.
Mrs. Robison said that she
wants options kept open for potential expansion. She wants clarification and
understands that that real decision point is when to acquire the land and the
available options for phasing. Mr. Hunsaker stated that there are two directions
that would have in impact: site selection and a charge to the design team for
the ultimate the vision of facility. Mrs. Robinson and Mrs. Robison said
that they were open to that idea.
Mrs. Robison said that
Mr. Roseland asked if a dual
path could be pursued. He wants more data on a TAC partnership. He said that the
challenge is with the regional venue baseline of $27 million plus land and he
would like staff to focus on those two short term, and for the long term keep in
mind capacity or land to go to the national scope. He said that they have to
identify sites for a regional venue and he wants to look at the north
Mrs. Robison said that her
vision is to keep open to the possibilities and do a minimum of regional
baseline in such a way that it allows for grow. Mrs. Robinson suggested that
they may want to talk to the universities in the area to understand some of the
components.
Ms. Dorrel asked about the
difference between the regional venue baseline and the national venue phase
baseline. Mr. Hunsaker responded that the national venue doesn’t rule out that
you could eventually have a national facility; the regional one dismisses that
as a priority and allows you to work with other design considerations.
Ms. Dorrel said she wants to
give TAC the opportunity to think about how they can work together and preserve
the national venue and questioned whether that is a viable option.
Mayor McAlister stated they
need to receive more information on the TAC option. He asked staff to pursue
answers from TAC and schedule a future work session to share details with the
council. Mrs. Henderson stated that staff will meet with TAC to review their
plans.
Mr. Roseland stated that they
need to decide who is being served:
Mrs. Robinson asked if the
numbers presented reflect the growth in
Mayor McAlister said that staff
has been given better direction on how to bring information back to council so
that they can make an informed decision.
Mayor Pro Tem Smith asked if
the direction to staff included getting information from
Town Manager Bill Coleman
stated that the intent of the work session was to find out if the council was
interested in a national venue; if not, they would move to the regional venue
baseline, which is essentially how the TAC facility was set up. He said it looks
like council doesn’t want to forego the possibility of expanding to a national
venue, so the issue now is whether the TAC facility and their plan and program
could accommodate potential expansion to a national venue. He said it sounds
like council wants to start out much smaller than a national venue facility but
with the potential to expand to national.
Mrs. Robinson said that she
needs to know the cost savings of going with TAC, their capacity to meet
swimming needs of the community, and how they foresee the management
relationship, and access. Mrs. Robison added that she wants to know the short
and long term advantages and disadvantages over time.
Mr. Roseland stated that he wants information on partnership and
financial risks.
Mayor McAlister stated that
staff will provide information to council at future work session which should be
scheduled as soon as staff is ready.
The meeting adjourned at