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Cary Town Council Work Session Minutes June 7, 2006 Subject: Aquatic Facility Conference Room 11130 316 N. Academy St., Cary, NC
Present: Mayor Ernie McAlister, Mayor Pro Tem Jack Smith, Council Members Marla Dorrel, Mike Joyce, and Jennifer Robinson; Council Member Nels Roseland arrived late, and his arrival time is noted in the minutes
Absent: Council Member Julie Robison
Mayor McAlister started the meeting at 5:34 p.m.
The agenda for the meeting includes:
I. Purpose of Public Aquatics Facilities
II. Review of Past Aquatics Study
III. Review of Potential Options
(1) Town Facility
(2) TAC
(3) National Venue
(4) YMCA
IV. Questions
Parks, Recreation and Cultural Resources Director Mary Henderson outlined a power point presentation (attached to and incorporated in these minutes as Exhibit A), she referenced information that’s contained in a booklet titled “development options and enterprise plan for the Town of Cary aquatic facility” (attached to and incorporated in these minutes as Exhibit B), and she provided a handout that references information on aquatic facility options 1, 2, 3, 4 and the community concept and noted that this handout references 2004 numbers, and the power point presentation references up-to-date numbers (attached to and incorporated in these minutes as Exhibit C).
Mrs. Henderson clarified that options 2 and 3 are not stand-alone facilities.
Mr. Roseland arrived at 5:43 p.m.
Mrs. Robinson commented on the large size of option 4 and she asked if the market will support a facility of this size. Ms. Dorrel stated this is a good topic for the consultant.
Mrs. Henderson needs to clarify if 4b is in the construction cost of option 4. She believes that 4a is indoor and 4b is outdoor competition. She stated option 4 does not include the leisure pools.
Mrs. Henderson stated the presentation to Wake County/City of Raleigh depicted the aquatics facility as a regional facility, and they awarded the Town the $10 million based on this presentation. Mr. Roseland asked if it is required that the facility be regional in order to get the $10 million. Mrs. Henderson stated there is no written requirement. Town Manager Coleman stated the $10 million has been allocated, and in order to obtain final approval the Town will have to present a project to the county, and the county will have to approve it. He stated the judgment will be made on how close the proposed facility is to the original proposal presented to the county commissioners. He believes that some type of venue facility will be a requirement, but there’s no specific seating capacity that’s currently required by the county.
Ms. Dorrel asked if credit was given for sponsorships for option 4. Mrs. Henderson will get clarification on this, but she doesn’t think it’s been factored in. Ms. Dorrel would like an estimate of what might be expected regarding partnerships.
Mr. Roseland asked if the options include land acquisition. Mrs. Henderson stated they do not.
Ms. Dorrel wants to know the how platform diving fits in the market. She’d like more facts to help determine the demand. Mrs. Robinson wants the same information about the large national venues. Mrs. Henderson stated the report (Exhibit B) contains some information.
Mr. Joyce wants the process to be de-politicized. He asked if the Town needs to support the private efforts in the community to achieve an aquatic goal. He stated we have debt capacity and authority. He asked if there will be a tax increase, and if so how much. He asked for some information on a user fee system.
Mrs. Henderson stated the first study had a lot of information about fees, and that 2004 study has not been updated.
Mr. Joyce thought the matching fee from the county was based on no cost overrun of the convention center. Mr. Coleman stated every project approved has the caveat that it’s based on the availability of future hotel/motel/food/beverage tax revenues and if the convention center goes over-budget, then the convention center has first priority on the funds.
Mr. Joyce stated there are mobile pools. He asked for additional information on this.
Mr. Joyce wants to know phases of construction (what would happen and when).
Mayor McAlister asked what we told the public that the possible tax increase could be if we fully fund the aquatics facility. Budget Director Scott Fogleman replied that it would be 7 cents for the entire bond referendum ($130 million for streets and $30 million for parks). He stated we have used $4.3 million of the $30 million and have a little over $25 million left. Mayor McAlister estimated that would be about 2.5 cents on the tax rate (for the remaining $25 million).
Mrs. Robinson referenced Page 99 of Exhibit B. She stated this indicates that with regard to special user group attendance, option 4 would only bring in 5 additional meets per year. She wants the consultant to indicate if this number is still accurate or should be updated. She stated it seems like a lot of money if it will only result in 5 additional meets.
Mrs. Robinson asked if staff has talked with anyone about private/public partnerships. Mrs. Henderson understands that both groups (Mr. Curran and Mr. Carrow) are still interested in partnering.
Mayor Pro Tem Smith asked when the decision went from a pool to an aquatics facility. He’s not seen any private money for a partnership. He thinks the council has lost its focus. He just wants an outdoor recreation pool for the kids in the community. He’d prefer that the private groups raise their own money for any special facilities. He worries about a major investment for a specialty use. He stated the bond was for recreation.
Mrs. Robinson disagrees with Mayor Pro Tem Smith. She thinks the community has a lot of people participating in year round swimming. She thinks an indoor venue would be good for the economy, and she thinks the recreation component is also important. She thinks the Town should fund it with a private/public partnership.
Ms. Dorrel wants to look at all possibilities to get a better sense of what’s realistic. She suggested that council should determine how much can be done to make it as great as it can be and to be creative with partnerships. She stated the council members are very divided before even working through these issues. She suggested that all council members should set aside these disagreements.
Mr. Roseland stated the council hasn’t defined the project scope. He thinks the council must define physical site and location, scope and funding. He stated progress is being made by one private group, and there’s a grand vision with another private group. He doesn’t want more studies or more options; instead, he wants to pick a site. He suggested to challenge the two private groups and the Town to work together to find a product that meets all the needs.
Mayor McAlister asked what constitutes a venue facility and what will be required to get the $10 million in interlocal funds. He stated the last action from this council was to seek the interlocal funds, and we were successful; now, he thinks it’s important to protect that money if possible. He stated there have been different visions from community groups; one vision has gone from concept to reality and the group is breaking ground. He stated this brings more emphasis on the fact that something will be built, and council can do something to compliment that facility. He stated perhaps the Town and TAC could end up being a venue facility. He stated the council doesn’t need to choose between one or another group; instead, we need the nicest facility possible, and we need to protect the $10 million in interlocal funds. He believes that it’s possible to work out ownership and management concerns with the TAC facility. He stated TAC is a $20 million facility, and the Town has a commitment for $10 million in interlocal funds, and the council has set aside $5 million along with $25 million in bonding authority. Instead of duplicating something that’s already being done privately, he thinks it’s a good idea to work together with the private group to build the best facility possible.
Mrs. Robinson stated the council needs to decide if they still want to pursue a regional facility in order to get the county money.
Mayor McAlister stated if the Town must spend $40 million to get $10 million, then it’s not a good deal; however, if the Town can spend $10 million, get the county’s $10 million, and get a $20 million partnership, then it is a good deal.
Ms. Dorrel wants to keep an open mind, and she thinks Mayor McAlister is lobbying too hard for TAC. She agrees with the three points made by Mr. Roseland. She stated the scope must be addressed first.
Mrs. Robinson stated the council should define the scope in general terms and then get the consultant to help determine the need in Cary and how to build the best possible facility. She stated the council can use Councilman Hunsaker and get USA swimming involved as well. She stated the Town needs refined data. She wants to make a decision now on the scope of the facility.
Mr. Joyce stated this is a big commitment, and he thinks it’s important to understand construction phases. He thinks the Town should support TAC, because they have a facility being constructed.
Mayor McAlister stated if the State Capital Sports Center was building a $20 million facility in town then he’d say the same thing in principle, because we’d have a private organization building the facility that the Town could compliment. He stated the sum of the two could result in a venue type facility to allow the Town to secure the county’s $10 million.
Ms. Dorrel stated there can be compliments and she thinks the consultant has analyzed the TAC proposal and how it would meet the needs. She doesn’t think the council is ready to talk about the specifics of TAC’s plans. She questioned TAC’s $20 million commitment. She wants to first as a council answer the scope question. Afterwards, she’d like to see all interested parties sit at the table to work through the issues.
Mayor McAlister suggested that the council start at the top and consider the largest scope, and if council can’t agree on that as the scope, then the council should begin scaling it down.
Mr. Roseland suggested that each council member state for the record their comfort level regarding the funding level for an aquatic facility. He stated that may narrow the potential scope and site location.
Mrs. Robinson wants information from qualified people before council makes these decisions. Mr. Roseland believes the Town has spent enough on consultants, and the council has the analytical capacity to move forward with the existing data. Mayor Pro Tem Smith concurred that there’s a lot of data.
Ms. Dorrel suggested to focus on the questions the council wants the consultant to answer, and the consultant can provide those answers at the July 19 work session.
Mrs. Robinson stated the council should determine the scope and have the consultant come back at the July work session with data and real information.
Mayor McAlister suggested that the consultant define the elements of a regional venue type facility with recreation and inform the council of the cost, and then the council can determine how to build it (i.e., partnership). He stated if council can’t come to a consensus on this, then it would be time to go to Plan B. He thinks it’s a starting point to decide what a regional venue-type facility is, which would qualify the Town for the interlocal funds.
Mrs. Robinson stated the consultant may suggest to put a separate Town facility somewhere else in Town, and this may be a good compliment to a private facility. She concurred with the process as outlined by Mayor McAlister.
Mr. Coleman thinks the critical issue is defining the scope, because it will determine funding, the financial plan and the location. He stated some elements may be cash generators and others may be cash losses. He suggested that council determine what services to provide the public, which will help define the scope, and once council defines the scope, the staff can review information on-hand to determine what additional information we need.
Mrs. Henderson stated the consultant can come back and talk about how to meet the scope as defined by council.
Mr. Roseland asked for more data about the land in the Town’s inventory adjacent to the TAC site. Mrs. Henderson stated the Town has about 30 acres, of which only 10-15 acres are developable. Mr. Roseland stated his comfort level is $5 to $7 million from the Town in additional funding (cash or debt). He wants the consultant’s advice about a regional venue that could be achieved with the Town partnering with TAC, and he wants advice about a shared use agreement. He’s heard that TAC is hesitant about the Town taking on a controlling aspect of the shared facility. He thinks a regional venue at the TAC site would help Cary Towne Center to thrive. He wants the consultant’s advice on how to maximize existing Town assets, and he wants to focus on tangible options.
Ms. Dorrel thinks it’s premature to ask the consultant these questions.
Mr. Joyce wants to see the community needs defined as they’re related to the Town’s mission statement. He stated the slope of the land will impact the cost of the site.
Mayor McAlister reiterated that he thinks the council should find out from the consultant the regional elements that will be required to qualify as a venue-type facility to lock in the $10 million in interlocal funds. Ms. Dorrel asked if the consultant can tell us this. Mrs. Henderson stated if obtaining the county’s $10 million is a council goal, then it gives the staff direction. She stated the requirements issue is more of a Wake County/City of Raleigh issue instead of a consultant issue. She doesn’t believe anyone’s expectation is for everything to be built at once.
Ms. Dorrel stated the first question may be if the Town wants the $10 million in interlocal funds. By consensus, the council concurred that this is an important goal.
Mrs. Henderson stated a private aquatic facility is being built and there’s a YMCA with an aquatics element. She suggested these new facilities should be reviewed to look at supply and demand.
Mr. Joyce asked if staff can do this benchmarking without a consultant. Mr. Roseland wants an existing and new inventory of land. Mrs. Henderson thinks the consultant would be helpful for the market assessment, and staff can assess what’s necessary to keep the $10 million in interlocal funds.
Mrs. Robinson doesn’t think it’s well defined yet. She thinks the council needs a decision about whether to investigate a diving well, because this is an expensive component. Mayor McAlister suggested that council establish a baseline, and then add components to it as needed, and he stated the diving well is a component. He stated this will determine the maximum we can build.
Ms. Dorrel concurred with Mrs. Robinson, and she stated she’d like to have some information from the consultant about the value of a diving well.
Mayor McAlister clarified that the county has agreed to support a regional facility, and the consultant can advise the council about what this constitutes.
Ms. Dorrel wants to look at the elements that should be included and define the Town’s funding threshold, which then defines the private sector support that’s required. She suggested that council look at what will be left behind if the private sector money doesn’t come in.
Ms. Dorrel asked if council needs additional information about what was presented to the county commissioners to obtain the commitment for $10 million. Mr. Roseland stated he wants copies of the information about the award from Wake County.
Ms. Dorrel asked if there are time limits on the use of the $10 million. No one was aware of any time limits. Ms. Dorrel also asked if the consultant should talk about phasing at the next meeting. Mrs. Henderson concurred.
Mayor McAlister adjourned the meeting at 7:11 p.m.
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